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Molly Magid: Welcome to UC Science Radio, where we conduct interviews with a range of scientists to learn about the big issues facing our world and what science is doing to help. I'm Molly Magid, a master’s student in the School of Biological Sciences.
Today I’m talking with Dr. Rudi Marquez, the Head of UC’s School of Physical and Chemical Sciences. His research interests combine organic chemistry, medicine, and molecular biology. He’s also an entrepreneur whose goal is to come up with solutions that leave the lab and make a difference in people’s lives.
Kia ora Rudi, welcome to UC Science Radio. I'm interested in your role at UC, what you do, and what your research is about, so can you talk a bit about that?
Rudi Marquez: Kia ora Molly, and thank you very much for the invite. Well, I'm the Head of Physics, Chemistry and Astronomy here at UC. I'm originally a chemist by training. So my research is actually at the interface between biology and chemistry so we do a lot of drug development. We do a lot of development of new diagnostic tools, and largely a lot of it is new therapeutics, trying to deliver the next generation of healthcare into the world.
So, I've seen that you work a bit with a way to link your science into a business?
RM: Oh yeah, one of the things that we do is not only, obviously science, but also what we want to do is science that benefits (everyone), that we can apply to a number of things. For example, TRT is a company that began from our research on tissue regeneration. The way we started working on this is we developed a molecule that’s able to increase wound healing very quickly on diabetic models. What it does is increases the speed of closure. This is very important for people with diabetes, for example. In New Zealand, we have a big problem with diabetes particularly with the Māori and Pasifika communities, especially when they get an ulcer in their feet. You get a foot ulcer, the risk of amputation is very high. At the moment, we have no way of treating it. So we developed this molecule that can close up wounds very quickly.
As part of that work, we spun off a company called TRT, Tissue Repair Technologies. At the moment actually, we're going to be doing a horse trial in the next month or so. Actually horses are a lot like diabetic patients that if they get an injury at the bottom of their leg, it doesn't heal very well. So we're going to do a trial, and if it looks good, the next step will be thinking about how we're going to start putting that on people. Again trying to find a way to come up with solutions that are affordable and efficient to deal with human and animal health.
How exactly does it work, is it like a cream or how does it get on the wound to help seal it up?
RM: Well that’s a really, really good question. Obviously the stuff with wound healing, you have to be really careful with it because if you get too much neogenesis, too much tissue generation, you'll end up with a solid tumor, right? There's a balance between having too much and not enough. If you have not enough, then you will never heal, and so the way we did it is we developed a compound that you apply as a gel.
So we don't need to put cells on it, you have enough cells in your body. What we're trying to do is put it onto the wound and actually get it to kick-start the wound healing process because when people have diabetes, this process stops. So we just kick-start it, get the wound to close, and then it stops.
Is it a protein, a protein that does this or is it...?
RM: That is another really good question. No, it's not a protein, it’s a small compound. We like proteins, the only problem with proteins is that it's like milk. If you leave milk sitting on the bench, it will denature and it will go off. Proteins tend to be a bit touchy like that, you need to keep them cold, you need to look after them. So no, we developed a small molecule that you can leave out on the table for months, it's fine, so it is stable, it is nontoxic. The nice thing about it is also we can produce it cheaply. Because sometimes we can come up with a solution, but if the solution is so expensive that no one can afford it. You know, or it is so expensive that only wealthy people can afford it, I think that is not a good solution.
It is a big learning experience because you need to learn to talk to venture capital people, talk to regulator people, people like that. That is actually quite an interesting bit. We just started a company here in New Zealand that has to do with transfection, for dealing with parasites. This is particularly to do with veterinary medicine actually, how to deal with worms and the like. We do work with a number of companies to raise the funding and to deal with regulation, because running a business on top of being an academic or being the Head of School, it does take a lot of time. So it turns into very long days, but at the same time it also makes it really exciting. Every step gets you closer to the market, and it's not necessarily about trying to commercialize and trying to make money, it's actually about coming up with something that leaves the lab and does get into people's lives.
What is the other idea that you are working on in terms of parasites?
RM: One of the ideas we're working on is how to deal with antibiotic resistance, particularly applied to sheep and cattle. When sheep and cattle get worms, we treat them with antibiotics to try to kill those worms. But the problem with that is that you end up with antibiotic resistance developing in the worms. For example, ivermectin, at the moment, which is one of the drugs we used to use, we get a lot of resistance and sometimes it cannot be applied on its own because the worms now are resistant to it. So we developed a way that we can revert that antibiotic resistance. So the antibiotics we have before, we can actually use them again because we can revert the resistance and make the worms susceptible to them.
So not making more and more new antibiotics, but actually targeting the worms and taking away their resistance. How does that work?
RM: We designed something like a Trojan horse. So remember the story of Troy, right? The Greeks developed the horse, they had the horse sent there so the Trojans brought it in thinking there was nothing wrong with it. And then at night the Greeks came out and destroyed Troy. We designed a little Trojan horse that the worm doesn't think is dangerous to it, so it takes it in. Once inside, it releases the drug again. Basically we bypass the resistance mechanisms that the worms have developed for dealing with it. It means that we can actually use antibiotics in lower doses. So we reduce the toxicity, reduce the amount of antibiotic that we need to use and at the same time increase the efficiency.
What was your path to this research?
RM: How did we start with this? This started with a failed project. We were working on a completely different project, it was an anti-cancer project we were working on, and it failed. But we started looking at it sideways. The nice thing about being a scientist is that it allows you to look around, you know, you don't have tunnel vision, at least we don't have tunnel vision in our group. We like the idea of actually always keeping your options open, always looking at different sides. That is, from our perspective, very important. So we started with this project that failed and then it was a fortuitous observation that we noticed. We were actually dealing with some worms in the lab and we saw that this was working, and then that's when we got started.
That's always nice to hear in science. Like whenever I'm making a mistake, I'm like "we'll it's not a mistake it's data for a different project."
RM: Oh you’re absolutely right! Something that I always tell my students, they need to watch that movie Meet the Robinsons. It's like, it's great, you failed and it is great, it's absolutely fine and all your failures eventually will turn into a massive success, because you learn more from your failures. If everything works once, right, the first time, you learn a little bit. But if you fail, and you understand why you failed, that allows you to troubleshoot all the issues and it turns into a much bigger success later on. When my students fail at something in my lab, it's absolutely fine, let's find out why we failed and figure out what went wrong, and that so far has been very productive.
What's next for you, what's the next thing that you’re excited about?
RM: Perhaps in terms of New Zealand, something that we're doing at the moment that is actually quite interesting, we are doing a possum trial. We should get the final results of that experiment in the next month or so. So we have a way to sterilize possums without killing them. It's a humane way and it's environmentally friendly and selective.
Are you like, giving them birth control? Or how are you sterilizing them?
RM: Pretty much. We're actually pretty much putting them on the pill. But, it's a single application pill so they don't have to take it more than once. The other thing that is actually quite important, in the trial we've done, is that they actually like eating the pill. They only need to eat is once, and so and then they are just sterile, but we don't kill them, it's humane. One more thing that is important is that that pill has no effect on sheep or deer or humans. So it is environmentally friendly and selective, it only works on possums, mice, and rats. We know it works in mice and rats, we're testing it on possums at the moment, I should say.
Do you have recommendations for scientists who have an idea of some sort of product they want to market and they want to take it to the level of making a business?
RM: First of all, you need to find out whether there is a need for what you're trying to commercialize. Because sometimes as scientists we think that what we’re doing is amazing, it's fantastic, everything is brilliant, this is just the best thing ever, the best thing since sliced bread, this is just amazing. But you (need to) start thinking about it, and thinking well (a) is there a need for that? (b) Is your solution actually workable? Because sometimes what you’re proposing is just going to be completely inapplicable. Also again, be realistic, up to a point. Some people think that they're going to make billions of dollars out of any idea they have. And the reality is that's not going to happen. You need to make sure that there's a need and make sure that you have a good solution.
You need to talk to the people at the commercialization office. Here at UC we're really lucky because the people at the commercialization office are really good, they are brilliant. Then after that, it will take a lot of work and it will take a lot of time, you going to have to spend a lot of time talking to companies, talking to patent attorneys. It's your science, you know it better than anyone so you're going to spend a lot of time working with this. Yeah, it's going to be frustrating, you're going to cry, you're going to get exasperated, you're going to get hopeful, and then it's going to be over. It's like a roller coaster, but it's what makes it fun, right? Like, who wants a boring life?
What’s the most fun or exciting part of your job?
RM: When someone understands something they didn't understand before, or when they realize there's something new and they get excited about it, that's why I think we're here to disseminate knowledge but at the same time make sure people get excited about it. From my perspective that's the most important part of my job and the most fun part of my job.
We're very keen to keep building links with the community. Particularly for the Canterbury region, literally, we are their University. So we are always prepared to host students, to host primary schools, secondary schools, high schools, and we would like to have the opportunity to host people here or for us to go to the schools. We're quite happy to go and do presentations and experiments in front of the kids and bring in demos for them to come and experiment and experience science.
Yeah, that outreach is really important for especially younger students to see who these people are. I think more and more scientists are realizing that that's the point at which people get so interested and so excited about science. Actually showing what we do as scientists is so important.
RM: You're absolutely right. Not all scientists wear lab coats. You don't have to be a slightly old man or an old man with crazy white hair and crazy glasses to be a scientist. We have some scientists that are professional rowers, we have scientists who are doing everything, the scientist that can also build things. There are scientists that come from all kinds of different backgrounds. Just because no one in your family has been a scientist doesn't mean you cannot be a scientist. And I think we were all scientists as kids, you were always curious, you always wanted to learn why these things happen. As a scientist you never stop asking that. It's this childlike curiosity to think about how things work and how you make them better.
So my last question is, could you say in one sentence why your work is so important?
RM: Because my work helps train the next generation of scientists.
Thank you so much for talking with me.
RM: Absolutely, no worries.
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